Log in   Register a New Account

Accessify Forum - Discuss Website Accessibility

New to the forum?

Only an email address is required.

Register Here

Already registered? Log In

Currently Online

No registered users are online.

Excellent Sites built by Dreamweaver

Reply with quote Hi All


I want to find some excellent examples of sites created by Dreamweaver using PHP MYSQL without tables.

My understanding of the new disability act (and accessibility) is that tables have the problem that they cannot be understood by certain technology used by the disabled community and that by usings divs instead, would make the site conform to the new act.

If you have a few links I would be grateful. I need these to show to my colleagues the power of Dreamweaver.

If you have comments as to why I should not use Dreamweaver I would also like to hear from you.

Looking forward to hearing for you

All the Best
Jacky kenna
Reply with quote 22 hits and no comments?

Well first off my understanding of the DDA is that it in fact does not cover web sites at all. It is not about accessibility but discrimination. It requires that all be done to ensure a service does not descriminate. So this could cover a web sites shopping cart or if a toilette is only reachable with stairs. So no specific web paragraphs at all.

As for Dreamweaver, good program, but so is Notepad, HTML-Kit or any of a dozen others. Dreamweaver does not create excellant web sites, designers and developers do. A newbie with Dreamweaver can create as bad a web site as a experianced designer can with Notepad. It is your skill and creativety and not the program.

DW is good, handy tools for management. Site preview really sucks when using tableless design though. It blends in with other Macromedia prducts quite well helping your workflow. In the ned it can make your lie a little eaiser or harder depending on what you are doing, but the worth of the web site depends on you. I do not use DW much anymore, but there are always times and as I said the management tools are handy, like ppacing notes on pages with changes, but it only works if everyone else uses DW too.

Tables should notreally be used for layout. But if MySQL is being used then it suggests dynamic content which if tabular data is fine with tables as that is what they are meant for.

--
[size=9]Kyle J. Lamson
Analyst/Programmer III, State of Alaska
Reply with quote Hi Kyle

It may well be that I will no find my site.

Thank you for the clarificatin re DDA
Thank you for your view on an individuals programming skills.

I take your point re DW and site preview. I had wondered if it was me or only the sites I had looked at through DW which use tabless designs.

I take it that you and the others who have kindly viewed this post do not know of any Excellent sites which have been made with Dreamweaver regardless of the competance or not of the programmer.

If you do I would still like to know.

All the Best

Jacky
Reply with quote
jacky Kenna wrote:
My understanding of the new disability act (and accessibility) is that tables have the problem that they cannot be understood by certain technology used by the disabled community and that by usings divs instead, would make the site conform to the new act.


The (UK) Disability Discrimination act requires that services offered to the public are accessible and usable by that public, including for people with disabilities. The act asks us to take reasonable measures to make our services accessible. If your website offers a services, or puports to be a means of communication, then that website falls under the jurisdiction of the DDA.

The standard approach to building accessible websites is to follow the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. Following as many of those checkpoints as possible is the best approach. Every checkpoint has a priority, and its probably a good start to meet all priority 1 checkpoints. Meet as many priority 2 checkpoints as you can, and try to meet those priority 3 checkpoints that are easy to do.

There's a good deal of myth surrounding the accessibility of tables. The basic case where they can be inaccessible is when you are presenting tabular data within a design that uses tables for layout. Particularly if the user is blind and using a screen reader, it is difficult for them to figure out the purpose of the tables.

The DRC make a clever point by saying no website can guarantee that it "complies to the DDA", basically because no cases have been brought forward to test the legislation and define what is legally an accessible or inaccessible website.
Reply with quote Unless we built them ourselves, it is virtually impossible for any of us to say whether a site was built using Dreamweaver or not. It's just a tool, as lsw said.

The Watchmaker Project - my personal blog
29digital Design Studio - freelance web design/development
Reply with quote Hi Jacky and welocme to the community Very Happy

Can you confirm you are talking about the UK DDA or is it some other nations legislation Confused

Thank you

Mike Abbott
Accessible to everyone
Reply with quote My mistake

Obviously on this site the most important aspect is the accessibility aspect. It is not to me.

My quest is to find excellent Dreamweaver sites which comply. So my goal happens by chance to be the same as yours and I felt thisas one place to ask.

All the Best
Jacky Kenna
Reply with quote Again the only way to say if a site was built with dreamweaver is if there is a Generated with Dreamweaver meta tag, but you will rarely see a professional leaving something of that sort in as it is pure advertising and has no real use.

Hence we would have to say "My site is excellant and I use Dreamweaver" which the average ego of the people here would not allow. Those here tend to be the Humble types.

Laughing Course my idea of excellance and yours may be different, add to that the people you wish to argue the point with may not like it even if you do.

I can put forth DarkShadow-Designs which I built with Dreamweaver, but in code view so it could have been done as easily in Notepad, I have been tweaking the templates however in HTML Gate which I have been testing. No claim of excellance, but it validates, is accessible and I like it.

Dreamweaver is the editor of choice for most companies. It may be easier to argue why not to use other editors like FrontPage.

--
[size=9]Kyle J. Lamson
Analyst/Programmer III, State of Alaska
Reply with quote Dreamweaver a is just a tool and not magic bullet for building accessible websites however the latest version (MX 2004) does have an accessibility checker and code validator built in. It also has a one or two limited accessible templates.

Table less layout designs are ideal but they are not essential and to in my personal opinion layers are far too troublesome and require the designers to go and train on a CSS design course. I would take a look at table less forms however.
Reply with quote
Johan007 wrote:
Table less layout designs are ideal but they are not essential and to in my personal opinion layers are far too troublesome and require the designers to go and train on a CSS design course. I would take a look at table less forms however.

Aside from being completely off-topic - whuh? Shocked

Hands up everyone who has been on a "CSS design course"... I don't think I've even heard of any of them!

Table-less forms, on the other hand, are actually a lot more difficult to get to grips with than general CSS layout - if anything, you've got it arse about face...

The Watchmaker Project - my personal blog
29digital Design Studio - freelance web design/development
Reply with quote Wow I can’t believe the amount of replies particularly as none have answered the question I asked or ever bothered to try. I was looking for “sites created by Dreamweaver using PHP MYSQL without tables.” I could just have easily asked for ASP without tales. These discussions are a waste of time. Below are my findings. If you have a constructive comment I would love to hear but all this chat and not a single serious point. Keep up this and this forum will die.

Why did I ask this forum?
“Tables have the problem that they cannot be understood by certain technology used by the disabled community and that by using divs instead i.e. table less sites, would make our site conform to the new act.” This is the comment of my colleague. I am personally not bothered but if we can I will. Surely then one of the best places to get information would be the accessiffyForum.com. Surprisingly this is no the case.

This is a question you guys should have the answer to as it is critical to the access question regardless of where you are or what country. It so happens that this is an excellent way to create sites so please stop this crap about tables and that you have never heard of a css course. Realise that that is the point. Find out.

In case any one wants to know:
I have not found a site anywhere to match my query so perhaps there are none. As far as I have learned Dreamweaver may not be possible as it offers excellent WYSIWYG but if the screen are being created dynamically there is a problem. At the same time if you get Beginning Dreamweaver MX 2004 you will find in the Soccer study that limited tables screens are produced but not as extensively as we are using. Sadly Dreamweaver seems not to be appropriate for my project. Hopefully it will in some future edition.

All the Best

Jacky Kenna
Reply with quote I'm sorry, Jacky - but I think you'll find many of the regulars on this forum will hand-code sites. That's not to say that Dreamweaver cannot be used to develop accessible sites. Some of us know quite a bit about Dreamweaver, but don't use it all the time.

I've been a developer of accessible sites and a member of this forum for some time now, but I can't really come up with any example sites for you (created by Dreamweaver using PHP MYSQL without tables) - neither ones I've created or have come across on the Web.

It's a little unfair to criticise the forum for not providing answers - I haven't contributed in this as yet because I couldn't answer your question. LSW was quite right to correct you on the DDA, and thus was helpful. You must also understand that conversations will go slightly off-topic at times. Smile

Hopefully, some other (perhaps not so regular) forum members may be able to help you more - just give some time for replies. Smile
Reply with quote We (the day job) use Dreamweaver on a daily basis and have had a past rooted firmly in its WISYWIG features. However, as time goes on and the more we use web accessibility and standards based practices the less we use Dreamweaver's WYSIWIG aspects. In fact, I think I speak for most of the developers I work with when I say we only find it useful for its file and project management features (file check in / check out etc...). IMHO code view is the only approach worth considering if accessibility and standards are your design goals. Never expect software to do a job that requires human sensibilities.

As far as the PHP + mySQL developers I work with goes, they dislike Dreamweaver and would nevere consider doing what they do in a WISYWIG environment. Open source tools that promote and assist hand coding are the only way for them! WISYWIG data driven sites... ??? Surely a recipe for disaster?

So, I have no answer to your (direct) question other than I believe you will find it hard (impossible?) to find accessible web dvelopers who use Dreamweaver's WISYWIG approach (or other WISYWIG tools).

As a long time lurker, and infrequent poster, I have to agree with dotjay that your recent comments are unfair. Stick around a while, there is a lot to learn here.


Last edited by Ceri on 28 Jun 2005 09:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
Reply with quote I in fact do take offense, I have tried to answer the questions but your question as we have tried to explain is not answerable, it is like trying to prove if God exists or not.

If you cannot understand that excellant site are build be developers and not software then I personally know no other way to help you.

As for Tables, try doing a search, nothing new there, tables are discussed as is the DDA in many threads here, so go look for the answers you want to hear.

Your compadres comment about tables is correct, then again the DDA does not forbid tables so he is wrong also in a way. Simply tabless designs are better foraccessibility, but tables are not forbidden.

So you expect some simple answer to solve your problems bit there are none. DW code is nothing special that points out is is made with DW so none but the author can tell you if that is what they used. So there is no answer, go out, find "excellant sites" and write the web master and ask what they used.

I would not write PHP and SQL Queries in Dreamweaver.

As for the forum it is excellant and will remain that way, it did not start last Friday, it is well known and well respected in the web design community as well as the accessibility community. It will not be hurt because we actually chat with one another and make jokes rather than sitting around like a bunch of stuffed shirts (no offense to our Acedmics here Laughing ) or because one member is not getting a "magic bullet" answer where none is possible. We make comments and suggestions and you have to actaulally think about what we say, fill in the blanks so you have the answer you wanted to hear.

Sorry I can't give you a "quotable answer" you can simply print and lay on the table, web designs and especially accessibility is not that simple.

--
[size=9]Kyle J. Lamson
Analyst/Programmer III, State of Alaska
Reply with quote Guys - I think we all agree that Dreamweaver is one of the better WYSIWYG-type tools in Web Design (especially when it comes to accessibility), but that it requires knowledge outside of the WYSIWYG environment.

In short, I think I'm right in saying that you can use DW to make good sites, if you know how to go about it properly and use the right tools/settings.

Can I suggest (for the sake of arguement) that further replies to this thread should be able to provide some example sites? Someone might be able to provide here. I must note again, though - Jacky, I think the number of constraints in your question won't yeild too many results.

Display posts from previous:   

Page 1 of 2

Goto page 1, 2  Next

All times are GMT

  • Reply to topic
  • Post new topic