page zoom vs text zoom
'Page Zoom' VS 'Text Zoom'.
Which in your opinion is better and why? Personally, I really hope that the former becomes the only kind of zoom; however, I've undoubtedly missed some crucial issues in coming to that conclusion. So what are the issues?
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that's a good excuse for me to plug a nice article by alastair http://alastairc.ac/2006/11/browser-zoom-comparison/Patrick H. Lauke / splintered
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| redux wrote: |
| that's a good excuse for me to plug a nice article by alastair http://alastairc.ac/2006/11/browser-zoom-comparison/ |
Thanks for the heads up Patrick. I was assuming everybody would know the difference between 'text zoom' and 'page zoom'. Alastair's article should certainly provide some context to the debate.
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I imagine Page Zoom is better for the disabled, particularly when it doesn't cause horizontal scrolling. I often find I just want to bump the text size up or down a notch or two so it's comfortable to read. I also tend to use a Minimum font size.
I think both methods are useful as they serve slightly different purposes.
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| Cerbera wrote: |
| I think both methods are useful as they serve slightly different purposes. |
This is partly what I'm trying to get at - in what situations would somebody actively choose to use 'text zoom' over 'page zoom'? I can think of very few, if any, really good reasons.
It seems to me that 'page zoom' offers numerous advantages and, so far as I can tell, no disadvantages - its widespread adoption would also make my job a great deal easier!
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Sorry to bang on about dyslexia, but its my bag, so I'm bound to I guess...
If like me th user has good sight, but poor scanning ability, the text resizing is best, as it doesn't have the downsides of zooming images beyond their indended resolution, and doesn't create HUGE pages that you need to scroll across to read. Causeing even greater difficulty scanning from line to line.
If you have poor sght, I'm guessing haveing the images blown up too, will be of benefit. At least on some sites (e.g. where images are used for labeling)
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| Phil Teare wrote: |
| If like me th user has good sight, but poor scanning ability, the text resizing is best, as it doesn't have the downsides of zooming images beyond their indended resolution, and doesn't create HUGE pages that you need to scroll across to read. Causeing even greater difficulty scanning from line to line. |
The pixellation of images is one of the few potential problems with 'page zoom'. Having said that, I regularly zoom pages up to 150% in Opera and have never noticed any significant image distortion - certainly nothing that has effected my experience in using that site. Clearly, extreme zooming will inevitably result in severe degradation of image quality, just as extreme increases in font size will eventually break even the most 'bullet proof' Web page. The question then is how often will people use extreme page zooming, and is the resulting image degradation significantly worse than a broken page layout? When you factor in that the vast majority of Web sites are almost certainly not 'bullet proof', then implementing a 'page zoom' feature in your Browser would appear to be a no-brainer.
Your point about horizontal scrolling is a good one, though to my knowledge it only really applies to IE. I've rarely encountered that problem using Opera.
For me, the discussion boils down to this question: are there any likely scenarios in which a 'text zoom' would be clearly preferable over a 'page zoom', both in terms of usability and/or accessibility? Naturally I'm also interested in people's preferences, though that is very much a secondary objective for me in this debate.
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Scanning difficulties are greatly hindered by the scrolling issue mentioned above, and as more people downloaded, and started useing IE7 in the first day of its release than currently use Opera, I'd say discounting it as a problem in light of Opera's greater design in this respect is not likely to be of realistic relevance to the majority.
Unless you are choosing which browser to recommend to users based purely on their zooming functionality. In which case you're right. IE7's zoom is perculierly bad in this regard.
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| Phil Teare wrote: |
| Scanning difficulties are greatly hindered by the scrolling issue mentioned above, and as more people downloaded, and started useing IE7 in the first day of its release than currently use Opera, I'd say discounting it as a problem in light of Opera's greater design in this respect is not likely to be of realistic relevance to the majority.
Unless you are choosing which browser to recommend to users based purely on their zooming functionality. In which case you're right. IE7's zoom is perculierly bad in this regard. |
Agreed. My reason for playing down the horizontal scrolling issue is not because I consider it unimportant, just that it's the result of a poor implementation and therefore a rather unfair criticism of the overall principle.
Is 'page zoom' likely to become the de-facto solution in the future? Will it simply come down to a question of which approach proves the most popular, or are there really solid reasons to stick with 'text zoom' only - or both for that matter? In the absence of any compelling arguments against it, I'd like to see Opera's approach to page zooming become the de-facto solution, but I'm keen to hear what if any arguments there are against it (current implementation issues aside).
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i'd love a more polished dual implementation, giving users the choice. maybe something like CTRL+/- (or CTRL and scrollwheel) for page zoom, and CTRL-SHIFT+/- for text zoom (but the same smart horizontal containment as opera).Patrick H. Lauke / splintered
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Torsten: Phil and I have already given you more than one example where text sizing is much more preferable. But you've chosen to disregard them. Both methods are useful and browsers should, ideally, include both. I don't understand why you're so keen to destroy text sizing...my cynical side tells me you've made a site which you can't get to behave well when it's used?
I'd say that Ctrl+Scrollwheel/+/- combinations should do text sizing. A quick adjustment to the text size is all I imagine most users need when reading a page (if they need anything at all). Full page zooming aids a narrower section of the market, making this a less-used function. It makes sense to use the slightly more exotic Shift+Ctrl+Scrollwheel/+/- combinations for it, imho.
This would also avoid web users finding that shortcuts they are used to suddenly do something different after upgrading their browser.
(EDIT) If the features are well implemented, it would be possible to change the text size in a zoomed page and vice versa. And only needing simple shortcuts.
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| Cerbera wrote: |
| Torsten: Phil and I have already given you more than one example where text sizing is much more preferable. But you've chosen to disregard them. |
Ben, as interesting as your personal experience is, I'm after something more than just "I like to bump up the font size". I'm really interested in finding out what, if any, solid accessibility/usability reasons there are for not making 'page zoom' the de-facto type of zoom. Phil's comment re. horizontal scrolling is a serious concern but, as I said, it's an implementation problem only. I'm sorry if you feel that I was unfairly disregarding your view, that simply isn't the case. Perhaps you ought to be a little less sensitive?
| Cerbera wrote: |
| I don't understand why you're so keen to destroy text sizing...my cynical side tells me you've made a site which you can't get to behave well when it's used? |
Wrong. I've been thinking about this for a long time, and the recent release of IE7 proved a catalyst for further consideration of the issues. I'm not trying to "destroy" anything Ben. Could we have a little less melodrama please?
| Cerbera wrote: |
| Full page zooming aids a narrower section of the market, making this a less-used function.e in a zoomed page and vice versa. And only needing simple shortcuts. |
Who do you consider are the "narrower section of the market"? I believe both functions serve the same people for the same reasons, making a direct comparison of the two a reasonable proposition.
I spend a lot of time working with talented graphic designers who require near pixel perfect implementation. I spend considerable time making these layouts as accessible as possible which, naturally, includes making them scale well to text size changes. I often find myself wondering if this approach to development is really sustainable in the long term - hence this discussion.
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| Quote: |
| Phil's comment re. horizontal scrolling is a serious concern but, as I said, it's an implementation problem only. |
So are you going to solve this problem? You work for MS?
I still don't get why yo're dismissing this. You can lable the problem 'implimentational', but that does solve it.
Sorry I just don't get your thinking here.
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| Phil Teare wrote: | ||
So are you going to solve this problem? You work for MS? I still don't get why yo're dismissing this. You can lable the problem 'implimentational', but that does solve it. Sorry I just don't get your thinking here. |
Yes I do work for Microsoft Phil. I'll get right on this for you first thing tomorrow morning
No disrespect intended Phil, but you're missing the point entirely. I'm making these comments with a view to possible future developments in desktop browsers.
Incidentally, the horizontal scrolling problem is to be resolved in a future release - at least that's the theory.
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erm...
I'll believe it when I see it.
Their current zoom still bugs, and they say in the artical you link to:
| Quote: |
| We have been looking hard at providing an option to make this happen. Unfortunately, due to our schedule, it doesn’t look like this feature is going to make it into the IE7 product. It is high on our list for next version. |
As in IE 8? That could be 5 years from now if they follow form...
But yes it could happen...
If you'd made your purpose for asking clear from the start you may have received less frustrated replies.
Most people make more pressing requests, so it not suprising that we might assume you to be asking less hypothetical questions.
I theory, now we know what you're asking, there are few reasons I know of why the zoom function IE are promising and Opera has, couldn't be considered the ideal hybrid for all users.
(but if I'm honest I think you've simply changed the goal posts to suit your argument...)
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