Fix the Web
How do you think Fix the Web will fare?
It'll never work
0%
[ 0 ]
It'll be brilliant
50%
[ 4 ]
It could go either way / Not sure
50%
[ 4 ]
Total Votes : 8
thanks again for feedback.
Coders are suggesting the volunteer uses Wave to run a check on the site- do you think that's a bad idea?
In principle I guess we could create a first line of web accessibility experts to human test what is coming in- however I'm not sure I could get enough folks to manage this aspect?
gx
Gail Bradbrook
Fix the Web Project
Citizens Online
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I just tried Wave and would think it'd be hard enough to use/interpret unless you had a sound knowledge of accessibility issues. Personally the only automated checker I use, which is a commercial product, is AccVerify. I find it useful for metrics, like number of duplicate page titles but again as with Wave you need to be able to interpret the results which only comes with experience.
Is it perhaps worth launching with a limited service? Say only allow so many issues to be submitted a day or be "active" at any time. So for example if you set that to 100 and have reach the limit, no more can be submitted until some issues are cleared? That could be the beta phase to at least see what the response is like, see if perhaps it is manageable to allow more issues logged and or less experienced volunteers on board. Perhaps the first call is checked by an expert and if accepted then passed onto someone less technical?
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Useful info about the auto checkers.
We are doing 6 weeks of bug testing before a full launch (and would obviously delay if there were serious issues) - so I'll let it run with whoever is using it for now and see how it goes.
Limitations could annoy people? I think its all about the messaging...
I could ask my coders to add in a line for volunteers- to ask if they consider themselves e-access experts (my understanding is that there isn't a qualification or equivalent, so its hard to know?)
best
gx
Gail Bradbrook
Fix the Web Project
Citizens Online
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Gail, you're correct in saying there is no way to know if someone is an expert but I think given the subject matter it's likely most people will be honest.
I just think this is potentially such an influential project that it would be wrong to go at it full on from the start. Better to pilot on a limited basis, review, fix what's wrong and then roll out to the masses. Maybe that is the plan?
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OK, we can build in the check for volunteers and see how many come forwards with expertise.
Yes, starting small is the idea, definitely- quality not quantity - worries me of course, you can't really contain it!
Except we can contain the reports live for volunteers.
So can you bug test a bit then?! think you'll be a great help- nuances and big clangers too!
Gail Bradbrook
Fix the Web Project
Citizens Online
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Yes WAVE is good but you still need judgement on whether what it flags is actually an issue. And of course it can only pick up a fraction of the potential issues.
You also have the difficulty of 'policy'. Using the example above: Which type of CAPTCHA is accessible? Or
Should a mainly decorative photo have alt text?
Inconsistencies like this could liead to many problems.
The creation of a browser plugin sounds like a job for an agency in exchange for a credit on the website and in the plugin's About section. However I can understand them being cautious about putting their name to a untried concept.
Web Developer at Big Lottery Fund
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again, fundamentally, I just want some info that says "yes there are some issues with the site" here are some plus here's what the disabled person said.
if dialogue begins then the web owner ought to find themselves at some key places like here, WebAim, etc (as per our sign posting) and then get some help.
On the policy front then- well I reckon that's up to you good folks... debates always rage but what does the community generally go with? If you don't have an answer on some fronts I can't do a lot about that?
My understanding is that BCS are seriously looking at accreditation etc
In my view we are trying to raise everyone's game.
Accessibility is a journey with good human relationships at the heart of it ..?
Gail Bradbrook
Fix the Web Project
Citizens Online
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| Gail wrote: |
| Accessibility is a journey with good human relationships at the heart of it ..? |
Well said, Gail.
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What Will Work
As a public and social way for actual users to share actual difficulties, this seems like a sound project which will prove very useful. It won't change the world. It will provide a channel for awareness and progress to be raised - provided it is scoped carefully.
This idea will prosper as a day-to-day, grass-roots service for actual users.
What Won't Work
In particular, turning it into a manual production line for of automated accessibility test results run by volunteers will make over 80% of it useless. Such reports require careful professional review to even begin finding real-world issues, which usually results in cutting 80% of what they come out with.
Furthermore, automated testing en masse is scales best when done automatically. There are companies who do this, with differing degrees of professionalism. They are able to measure, collate, report and compare thousands of metrics across hundreds of websites every month.
About Your Website
I agree with all the comments about upgrading Fix The Web itself, especially the comprehensive list from jpb.
Main Menu
Design this as a set of items whose entire area is clickable. More recognisable, easier to click and prettier when done well.
URLs as Link Text
Your use of URLs as link text is quite unsightly. It will sound even more cumbersome when read out by software. The lack of punctuation makes this hard to follow.
Don't Force New Windows
This just causes desktop mess which the user didn't ask for. Users who didn't ask for this are rarely able to manage effectively - usually makes them confused (normal users) or annoyed (power users). There are split-second shortcuts and menu items for users who wish to open things in new windows. And with tabbed browsing now being the norm, it's just so last century to force new windows.
Better Descriptions
Whilst writing the below samples, I realised the descriptions are not that descriptive. Especially for WebAIM...what else would it be than an "excellent resource on all things web accessibility [...]" given the name and the fact you are recommending it?
Occam's Razor
Vertically centring the link makes the descriptions all run together, hard to see what is related to what. Indeed, using a table for this at all seems like using a hammer to crack a nut. A simply styled definition list with better link text would work nicely.
So the first two items would change from this:
| Code: |
| <tr class="odd views-row-first">
<td class="views-field views-field-field-link-url"> <a href="http://www.w3.org/wai" target="_blank">http://www.w3.org/wai</a> </td> <td class="views-field views-field-field-link-desc-value"> Home of web accessibility guidelines </td> </tr> <tr class="even"> <td class="views-field views-field-field-link-url"> <a href="http://www.webaim.org" target="_blank">http://www.webaim.org</a> </td> <td class="views-field views-field-field-link-desc-value"> excellent resource on all things web accessibility starting from basics to very advanced </td> </tr> |
| Code: |
| <dl>
<dt><a href="http://www.w3.org/wai">W3C Web Access Initiative (WAI)</a></dt> <dd>Home of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, the standard to measure websites by.</dd> <dt><a href="http://www.webaim.org/">Web Accessibility In Mind (WebAIM)</a></dt> <dd>From basic overviews to surveys and advanced tricks, plus lots of disabled user involvement.</dd> </dl> |
| Code: |
| <dl>
<dt><a href="http://www.w3.org/wai"><acronym title="World Wide Web Consortium">W3C</acronym> Web Access Initiative (<dfn>WAI</dfn>)</a></dt> <dd>Home of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, the standard to measure websites by.</dd> <dt><a href="http://www.webaim.org/">Web Accessibility In Mind (<dfn>WebAIM</dfn>)</a></dt> <dd>From basic overviews to surveys and advanced tricks, plus lots of disabled user involvement.</dd> </dl> |
| Ben Millard's example wrote: |
| W3C Web Access Initiative (WAI)
Home of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, the standard to measure websites by. Web Accessibility In Mind (WebAIM) From basic overviews to surveys and advanced tricks, plus lots of disabled user involvement. |
Other Resources...
May I suggest adding a link to Accessify Forum? That would provide a place for the developers of reported websites to have more detailed technical discussions. The two services will complement each other nicely.
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| Ben Millard wrote: |
|
What Won't Work In particular, turning it into a manual production line for of automated accessibility test results run by volunteers will make over 80% of it useless. Such reports require careful professional review to even begin finding real-world issues, which usually results in cutting 80% of what they come out with. Furthermore, automated testing en masse is scales best when done automatically. There are companies who do this, with differing degrees of professionalism. They are able to measure, collate, report and compare thousands of metrics across hundreds of websites every month. |
Exactly what I was trying to articulate Ben! I mentioned above, I've audited countless sites and agreed wholeheartedly that automated testing is not the silver bullet. Such tools can be useful to the experienced auditor but a real nuisance in the wrong hands!
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At one time I routinely contacted websites about serious accessibility problems but got fed up after a couple of years. The responses varied enormously but most often there was no response or a politely worded "Bovvered? Do I look bovvered!?" type of response.
Some of the worst examples were websites of companies and voluntary agencies advertising themselves as "web accessibility experts" and offering to audit and improve other people's sites. The responses from those sites were always along the lines of "We are experts . . . we know best . . . thank you for your time. Goodbye".
There must be other people like me who would welcome a project with some "clout" so that time spent sending in helpful comments and requests would be less likely to be wasted.
I agree with the suggestions about a pilot and would suggest that changes made as an outcome of the pilot should also be tested before "roll out".
I am not a professional web-designer and I am rusty on accessibility. I tried WAVE some time ago and found it complicated at that time.
The training for volunteers should result in a lot more people being aware of how to achieve good results in terms of accessibility and that's no bad thing.
Letting people know that they have got something wrong is not sufficient. If they have got it wrong it will not be because they are evil but because they don't know how to do it right or think that it will be too hard and/or time consuming to do it right.
An important aspect of the project must be educational: to help people to put things right and then help them not to make the same mistakes again. There will be some ingrained habits that will have to be unlearned and some new practices to become "normal practice" to replace them.
Perhaps one of the issues for the pilot could also be determining priorities for notification when there are many problems with a site?
Hope these rather disjointed comments are helpful - in a bit of a rush!
Liz
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| Ms Mouse wrote: |
| An important aspect of the project must be educational: to help people to put things right and then help them not to make the same mistakes again. There will be some ingrained habits that will have to be unlearned and some new practices to become "normal practice" to replace them. |
The separation also seems helpful: worried site owners could get away from immediate demands of customers to really understand the issues their website has. It's professional advice FOR FREE!
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Tweeted about this topic and got this reply about advertising for crowdsourcing volunteers if it is any help:
http://twitter.com/#!/yoginibambie/statuses/26705482837
@yoginibambie Barbara Bernardo
@msmousette hi! read your article about crowdsourcing volunteers. hope u'd share similar news in http://bit.ly/bFCona thanks
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For those interested, listen to BBC Radio 4 tonight at 8.40pm to hear Leonie Watson's interview on the #fixtheweb campaign.
(spotted on Twitter via @FixTheWebGail)
James Coltham - Local gov web manager by day, web and accessibility blogger at lunchtime, freelancer by night. Tweets at @prettysimple.
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Have moved this to the Fix the Web forum since it's about, erm, Fix the Web 
Accessify Forum Administrator ~ Nigel Peck / MIS Web Design
"Everything I say is not meant to be set in stone" - Van Morrison
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