page zoom vs text zoom
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| Phil Teare wrote: |
| As in IE 8? That could be 5 years from now if they follow form... |
I interpreted that as a minor release as opposed to a major release. That could be wishful thinking of course.
| Phil Teare wrote: |
| I theory, now we know what you're asking, there are few reasons I know of why the zoom function IE are promising and Opera has, couldn't be considered the ideal hybrid for all users. |
Excellent. So what are they?
| Phil Teare wrote: |
| (but if I'm honest I think you've simply changed the goal posts to suit your argument...) |
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one Phil. As far as I'm concerned I've been perfectly consistent.
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| Excellent. So what are they? |
- As people have just started getting used to designing 'bullet proof' liquid CSS, they'd have to make new alterations to code, now asuming images will also resize, and what that will do to their layout.
- Pixalation is an issue if, like me, you like you text pretty big (much larger than'Largest' in IE's text resizing options)
- Who decides what gets resized and what does not? I see another standards war brewing, and the usual casuallties will be hit hardest.
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| Phil Teare wrote: |
| As people have just started getting used to designing 'bullet proof' liquid CSS, they'd have to make new alterations to code, now asuming images will also resize, and what that will do to their layout. |
One of the advantages of the 'page zoom' approach is that it wouldn't require developers to jump though hoops in making sites liquid. In fact, it wouldn't require any additional effort on the part of developer at all. That's one of the biggest reasons why I see it becoming the de-facto approach. Waiting for the wide-spread adoption of fluid layouts is, sadly, probably not a realistic option.
| Phil Teare wrote: |
| Pixalation is an issue if, like me, you like you text pretty big (much larger than'Largest' in IE's text resizing options) |
This is definitely the one potentially serious problem in my opinion. It doesn't appear to be an issue at low levels of zoom as both Opera and IE (the only two browsers to support this feature at present) do an excellent job of resampling images; however, there's clearly a potential for problems at higher levels of zoom. Some potential issues that spring to mind for me are:
- Graphic text - text provided in the form of an image - may become unreadable at higher levels of zoom. Of course they may well have been unreadable to begin with, so it's not clear how big an issue that really is. The only real solution for this is for developers to avoid using images for anything but headings/logos where the font size is likely to be sufficiently large already.
- Images which constitute actual content, as opposed to purely presentational, may either be zoomed when it is not appropriate/necessary to do so, or may be effectively rendered unusable by extreme zooming. For example, digital works of art or professional photo galleries may be seriously affected by extreme zooming.
I can't think of any others at the moment - besides the horizontal scrolling issues which is, of course, a bug - but there must be other issues.
Does anybody have any links to any relevant usability research on this topic?
| Phil Teare wrote: |
| Who decides what gets resized and what does not? I see another standards war brewing, and the usual casuallties will be hit hardest. |
I'm not sure I follow you on this one. Current implementations zoom everything, and I can't imagine why this would change in the future. Can you expand a little?
Thanks.
Last edited by Torsten on 12 Nov 2006 10:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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to avoid the page becoming too wide for the view port (if every element is increased in size), and you still not need a horizonal scroll, the page must shuffle the elements.
Although liquid design will help here, most developers are used to checking the page holds water after the text is resized, not images, input boxes, tables, etc...
It is far easier to make pages bullet proof for large text sizes, than it is for large EVERYTHING sizes.
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Last edited by Phil Teare on 31 Oct 2007 11:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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| Phil Teare wrote: |
| Although liquid design will help here, most developers are used to checking the page holds water after the text is resized, not images, input boxes, tables, etc...
It is far easier to make pages bullet proof for large text sizes, than it is for large EVERYTHING sizes. |
It would appear that we have a fundamentally different understanding of how 'page zoom' typically works in current browsers. To my knowledge, the use of fluid layout techniques has no impact on the way 'page zoom' typically works - not least because it is designed to work on pages that are not fluid i.e. tha vast majority. If I'm wrong, and you know for a fact that it does, then please do correct me by all means - with appropriate references of course.
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| It would appear that we have a fundamentally different understanding of how 'page zoom' typically works in current browsers. |
IE 7's zoom zooms. It makes the page bigger in all directions. This means that the page, when unzoomed, fills the width of the viewport and the page when zoomed fills more than the veiwport. causeing a horizontal scroll bar to appear, which means we're back to what you call a bug.
For once I'd say this is a deign flaw not a bug.
If you want rid of the issue you have been dismising as a soon to be remedied bug (the horizontal scroll appearing when you zoom, and an amount of content going out of view) then you need the page to be fluid to fit to the newly enlargened elements in the 'still the same old size' view port.
You can't have your cake and eat it.
Either the content must rerender to fit the now relatively narrower confineds of the viewport, meaning you've not lost your headache of makeing good liquid design (worse still its not just text containers you have to worry about now), OR you do what IE 7 has done and effectively zoom the viewport itself, but then they've created a problem for users who find this a less accessible solution, due to scanning problems...
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| Phil Teare wrote: |
| Either the content must rerender to fit the now relatively narrower confineds of the viewport, meaning you've not lost your headache of makeing good liquid design (worse still its not just text containers you have to worry about now), OR you do what IE 7 has done and effectively zoom the viewport itself, but then they've created a problem for users who find this a less accessible solution, due to scanning problems... |
We may be talking at cross purposes here Phil. My understanding, unless you can prove to me otherwise, is that fluid layout techniques of the sort typically employed by Web developers, have no impact on the way 'page zoom' currently works in IE or Opera. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
Opera is able to zoom without creating a horizontal scroll-bar, and without requiring a Web developer to use fluid layout techniques. It is my belief that Opera's model will eventually be replicated by the other browsers, including IE. I thought we agreed that we weren't talking about the failings of IE's current implementation?
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how?
I've just checked, and unsuprisingly, the laws of 2D geometry have been up held. If you choose Fit to Width in opera, the page must be bullet proof beyond the usual text resizing, but also to withstand image and other elements resizing. The result? The first page I tried broke. The BBC.
I'll be posting the evidence you demand (doesn't hurt to trust people once in a while) as soon as my VPC unfreezes. I'm guessing due to the new Opera install).
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Last edited by Phil Teare on 25 Sep 2007 07:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Zooms but has horizontal scrollbar
zooms but breaks pages not designed for this form of zooming, i.e. most pages.
worste yet to come....
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here 1/3 of the navigation elements are off screen (and as there's no scrollbar, completely inaccessible). if I refreshed they would either be as shown, or the would be SHRUNK to fit! Thats right, made smaller. So much so, that I, with pretty good sight, could not read without putting my face up to the screen.
Now please, if you ask a question, and someone is willing to give you an answer, why not listen to that answer? I've design and built two accessibility tools now. One installed IE API based, the other DOM based. I know how zooms work and what there limitations are, I shouldn't have to provide 'evidence'. [edit OOooooOO get me! wheres that handbag icon I wanted]
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I really don't know what you're trying to prove here Phil. You've still provided no evidence that fluid layout techniques have a bearing on the way 'page zoom' currently works. What you have provided is the worst examples of page zooming you can find - while knowing full well that a text zoom would produce equally bad results - in an attempt to discredit the whole approach. I don't think there's any point in discussing it further as this clearly isn't leading anywhere.
| Phil Teare wrote: |
| Now please, if you ask a question, and someone is willing to give you an answer, why not listen to that answer? I've design and built two accessibility tools now. One installed IE API based, the other DOM based. I know how zooms work and what there limitations are, I shouldn't have to provide 'evidence'. [edit OOooooOO get me! wheres that handbag icon I wanted] |
This is a discussion Phil. I think I'm entitled to ask for supporting evidence, even if you think you're too important to provide it.
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| What you have provided is the worst examples of page zooming you can find |
These are the first two pages I tried! You don't have to believe me, but unsurprisingly, if you call someones word into question, they're likely to get a littke offended.
I've provided exactly the evidence you requested and you're still refusing to believe me.
No I'm not too important to offer evidence (otherwise I wouldn't have given it), but I do know what I'm talking about and you asked me a question, now that I've given you and answer AND evidence you trying to close the thread in an attempt to save face.
Surely there are better places to troll?
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Last edited by Phil Teare on 25 Sep 2007 07:40 pm; edited 2 times in total
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| Phil Teare wrote: |
| I've provided exactly the evidence you requested and you're still refusing to believe me. |
No you haven't Phil.
| Phil Teare wrote: |
| No I'm not too important to offer evidence (otherwise I wouldn't have given it), but I do know what I'm talking about and you asked me a question, now that I've given you and answer AND evidence you trying to close the thread in an attempt to save face. |
I'm not attempting to close the thread, I'm attempting to close the discussion with you, for reasons that are all to obvious given your last post.
| Phil Teare wrote: |
| Surely there are better places to troll? |
Questioning your 'evidence' does not make me a troll Phil. I'm not interested in hurling abuse at each other, so why don't we drop it before this gets any worse.
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| while knowing full well that a text zoom would produce equally bad results |
No it wouldn't, because text resizing would not resize the images in the CNN navigation area. Which causes the navigation element to either go off the edge of the page OR get SHRUNK.
Accept that there is a problem and I'll stop posting. This should remain civil so I appologies for getting worked up about it. people can go to the trouble of trying what I did in opera and seeing for themselves that it does actually do what I have shown in my screenshots. I'm not looking to find enemies here, just answering questions that are asked if and when I can. I belive I have answered your question and shown evidence. I hope you can accept my appology, and invite you to try what I done and see for your self. Best wishes.
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Last edited by Phil Teare on 25 Sep 2007 07:42 pm; edited 2 times in total
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| Phil Teare wrote: |
| No it wouldn't, because text resizing would not resize the images in the CNN navigation area. Which causes the navigation element to either go off the edge of the page OR get SHRUNK. |
Your screen grabs are at 800x600 right? If you open the CNN site in Firefox at 800x600, and then bump up the text size to match your example, you'll find that the navigation still goes off the screen and, naturally, results in a horizontal scroll bar. How is that any better. It could be argued that it is worse, as the navigation is still tiny. Clearly, in this example, the 'page zoom' is not an enormous improvement, but it certainly isn't worse. And besides, the core problem in this example is that they've used a graphic for main site navigation, something which I think we would both agree is extremely undesirable.
| Phil Teare wrote: |
| Accept that there is a problem and I'll stop posting. |
I've never said anything to the contrary Phil, and whether you continue posting or not is of no concern to me, so long as we're not hurling abuse at each other.
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