'abbr' misuse in microformats - a proposed solution
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I have a possible solution for the problem of microformats' abuse of the abbr element.
I think it can be solved by using a generic (i.e. across all microformats) class-name, say "ufvalue" (for "microformat value; I'm sure a better name can be found!), such that:
| Code: |
| <abbr title="2007-08-28T14:00Z" class="dtstart">2pm</abbr> |
is replaced with:
| Code: |
| <span class="ufvalue dtstart" title="2007-08-28T14:00Z">2pm</abbr> |
with parsers instructed that:
| Quote: |
| if "ufvalue" is present, the value for that microformat component is the content of the title attribute, not the contents of the element |
This would work on any element (thereby offering greater flexibility), but only when the specific class name is present, allowing use of title for other purposes where needed. The class name should therefore be chosen (as in this straw-man) to NOT be a common word.
For backwards compatibility, use of "abbr" should still be recognised by parsers (in pre-existing microformats only?) but deprecated for publishers.
An additional benefit is that this solution may work on wikis using the MediaWiki platform, where the abbr element is disabled.
Can anyone see any problems (accessibility related or otherwise) with this proposal? If not perfect, is it still an improvement on the use of abbr?
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Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
Birmingham, England
Last edited by pigsonthewing on 03 Aug 2007 09:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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It seems I'm not the first with this idea. Great minds..._________________
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Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
Birmingham, England
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sadly, i haven't seen any concerted effort from the likes of tantek to actually aknowledge, let alone act upon, reported problems and potential solutions (other than saying that no, his epiphany that ABBR should be used is still the best thing since sliced bread, and that it's a screen reader issue if they read out full ISO datetimes or LAT/LONG coordinates to a user).
frankly, i've given up hope and in the end just couldn't be a*sed anymore to bang my head against that brick wall...but if others with more enthusiasm want to renew the effort to push the abandonment of ABBR misuse in favour of something like my proposed title-design-pattern, please do...
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Patrick H. Lauke / webmaster / University of Salford
co-lead: WaSP Accesibility Task Force
take it to the streets ... WaSP Street Team
personal: splintered | photographia | redux
co-author: Web Accessibility - Web Standards and Regulatory Compliance
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Indeed; Celik even claims that "the ISO date is MORE human friendly to MORE humans, than the english version"! (the whole debate on that page is worth reading, and is quite illuminating)
However, it is my intention to pursue the matter, hence my post here. I'd like to know that the proposed solution works (in screen readers aural browsers especially), and that any issues have been ironed out, before I take it back to the microformats fora.
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Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
Birmingham, England
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tantek [...] makes out that we're proposing to completely abandon the ABBR pattern, because we're claiming it's inaccessible in all cases. of course not! as discussed in the article and in lengthy conversations on the wiki/email list, we've raised that specific uses of the ABBR pattern *right here, right now* are causing accessibility problems in certain common situations.
his argument of that in the future, screen readers will be able to make content even more accessible thanks to the use of ISO dates and ABBR is true, but anathema to the idea of microformats that it's a technology that works in the here and now.
the alternative to ABBR was proposed not as a definitive solution, but to get the ball rolling on discussing alternative approaches. we never claimed that it was the be all and end all. we tried to follow what we thought was the process of the little microformats clubhouse...make a proposal, get others to kick the tires and see if there's anything wrong with it.
currently, the one single hurdle to accessibility improvements to microformats is their self-styled cult leader. i thought this picture was actually quite appropriate in this context...
http://www.flickr.com/...
[ed. slightly redacted for family friendliness]
_________________
Patrick H. Lauke / webmaster / University of Salford
co-lead: WaSP Accesibility Task Force
take it to the streets ... WaSP Street Team
personal: splintered | photographia | redux
co-author: Web Accessibility - Web Standards and Regulatory Compliance
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You could just avoid using any of the title-based patterns which are non-conformant HTML4.
Nobody has e-mailed me asking for Microformats to be added to any site I've made. I think their usefulness may be a myth in the first place. Microformats are entirely optional. You can safely ignore them.
A generic data attribute has been proposed for HTML5 a few times and has some support (human and UA) for addressing issues like this.
It was also suggested that any attribute prefixed with x_ could be treated as an experimental data attribute, which would be available to DOM scripting and CSS selection.
| Code: |
| <abbr x_date_iso_8601="2007-08-28T14:00Z" class="dtstart">2pm</abbr> |
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My CV type thing and my Life of Ben (Blog). Nigel Peck's Accessify Forum Requirements.
Last edited by Ben Millard on 03 Aug 2007 03:57 pm; edited 2 times in total
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| Cerbera wrote: |
| Nobody has e-mailed me asking for Microformats to be added to any site I've made. |
Perhaps that says more about your sites than microformats?
Current microformat publishers include AOL, BBC, Flickr, Google, Multimap, Opera, W3C, Wikipedia & Yahoo.
| Cerbera wrote: |
| Microformats are entirely optional. You can safely ignore them. |
HTML is entirely optional. Like HTML, many people find microformats useful. Some if us also want to improve them.
[Edit conflict] Remind me again when is HTML 5 expected to be available for use, and recognised by popular browsers?
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Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
Birmingham, England
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| pigsonthewing wrote: | ||
Perhaps that says more about your sites than microformats? |
Now, now play nice
(<- note smiley). To be honest we've not had a single client request microformats either, and it's not as if RA isn't working with a few household names and guys in the industry.
We do however tend to sneak a few on there as and when appropriate.
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| Richard Conyard wrote: |
| Now, now play nice |
That was nice.
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Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
Birmingham, England
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FWIW, HTML5 proposes a <time> element for this sort of thing._________________
Simon Pieters
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| zcorpan wrote: |
| FWIW, HTML5 proposes a <time> element for this sort of thing. |
Yes, I'm aware of that, thank you, and it looks promising but as I asked above:
| Quote: |
| Remind me again when is HTML 5 expected to be available for use, and recognised by popular browsers? |
even them it won't address the issues of coordinates; or abominations like:
| Code: |
| <abbr class="type" title="fax">Téléc</abbr> |
("Téléc" being French for "fax", apparently; all such values within the microformat must be in English)
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Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
Birmingham, England
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| pigsonthewing wrote: |
| Remind me again when is HTML 5 expected to be available for use, and recognised by popular browsers? |
<canvas> is already available for use, and is recognised by popular browsers. I don't know when <time> or other features are going to be implemented.
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Simon Pieters
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| zcorpan wrote: |
| <canvas> is already available for use, and is recognised by popular browsers. I don't know when <time> or other features are going to be implemented. |
that's because canvas was implemented before the spec was actually written up properly (which it still isn't), because it's a sexy graphical interface that the browser devs felt they absolutely needed, with an instantly visible impact. call me a cynic, but i doubt that they'll rush off to implement time. and then, what about backwards compatibility? and how long before AT actually supports time?
that's why some of us thought microformats were a good alternative...since they're supposedly technologies for the here and now, that don't break current behaviour and implementation...
_________________
Patrick H. Lauke / webmaster / University of Salford
co-lead: WaSP Accesibility Task Force
take it to the streets ... WaSP Street Team
personal: splintered | photographia | redux
co-author: Web Accessibility - Web Standards and Regulatory Compliance
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| pigsonthewing wrote: |
| Indeed; Celik even claims that "the ISO date is MORE human friendly to MORE humans, than the english version"!
|
if i may be so cheeky as to post a reply to that point that james craig sent to me earlier tonight
| cookiecrook wrote: |
|
He is correct that it's language-barrier-free, but that's irrelevant to the problem. Localization is not the job of Microformats and never could be, unless you figure out how to explain *all* data in a language-barrier-free way. In other words, what good does it do a non-Arabic-reading reader to know that the event happens 2007-08-23T10:00, when the event title is "رايس تحث على التفاوض وتساعد أجهزة عباس"? |
_________________
Patrick H. Lauke / webmaster / University of Salford
co-lead: WaSP Accesibility Task Force
take it to the streets ... WaSP Street Team
personal: splintered | photographia | redux
co-author: Web Accessibility - Web Standards and Regulatory Compliance
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| redux wrote: |
| what good does it do a non-Arabic-reading reader to
know that the event happens 2007-08-23T10:00, when the event title is "رايس تحث على التفاوض وتساعد أجهزة عباس"? |
Quite, and what good does it do for a blind speaker of Arabic only, if their software insists on saying "Two-zero-zero-seven-dash-zero-eight..." when the author of the page wrote the start time, 10am on 23 August, on the page, in good Arabic?
Even for native English speakers, ISO dates are inaccessible when spoken.
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Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
Birmingham, England
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